PDA

View Full Version : No Smoking....



Bloodaxe
02-18-2006, 06:08 PM
The House of commons voted a few days ago for a total smoking ban for licensed premises including pubs, social clubs, private clubs, etc.
Makes my blood boil! Why? I'm no smoker (never tried it- never wanted to!) but I don't think it's the job of government to dictate how we should run our lives. The only people to me who should decide whether they want smoking is the people that run the pubs themselves. I'm a true democrat- I tolerate other peoples habits and opinions- even if I do consider them repugnant- and smoking certainly is! The politically correct lobby are only as ever trying to protect people from real or imagined health problems or "offensive" opinions, like the bloody fascists they really are!

Goban
02-18-2006, 06:50 PM
Welcome to the club. Many U.S. states have been “smoke free” now for years. I do smoke, unfortunately, but I like to go to restaurants and pubs and enjoy myself. It’s not too much of a pain in the butt to go outside for a smoke.

Actually, it’s probably a good thing. It keeps me from chain smoking while I’m drinking…

SoxyinMO
02-19-2006, 08:21 AM
I've never smoked either and I have very bad reactions to cigarette smoke, and my grandmother died of lung cancer; however I have a hard time with the whole ban thing, too. I understand the rational of it, but still have a hard time with it, especially when Calif. started extending it to open spaces like beaches and parks.

The thing that got me with the English ban is that it would include private clubs...If all the members there want smoking, then what's the point in that?

And the biggest problem I have with everyone going outside for a smoke is that I then have to walk through a cloud to get into or out of a building. When my friend and I walk the quad at work there are always at least three smokers around every door to the building. It's like running past a dragon. :D

zoom6zoom
02-19-2006, 09:28 AM
Believe it or not, a statewide ban is currently working it's way through the Virginia Legistlature. It's already passed in the House and is on it's way to the State Senate. Pretty unbelievable in the state where Tobacco has always been King.

newportstorm
02-19-2006, 09:44 AM
No smoking up here in RI, CT or MA. Don't mind it one bit and I can't say that many business owners are complaining about lost business after an initial downturn. People still go out to eat and drink.

Cheers!

chazwicke
02-19-2006, 12:02 PM
I'm a non smoker.

DC has been trying to pass the ban too. I do know several owners of bars and restaurants who are opposed to it.

Bloodaxe
02-19-2006, 12:44 PM
It's more the principle than anything. Does the government- US or the UK- have a right to tell people not to do something on what are private premises? As I said I'll benefit personally- I can't stand the bloody habit and I wish it didn't exist- but it does and I don't think the government has a right to dictate things affecting our personal health, I never liked smoking but hell there's lots of things I don't like but I don't promote banning them. Logically the next step would be to ban beer as well as it's also bad for your health- ban beer?- couldn't happen!!!!!!

newportstorm
02-19-2006, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by Bloodaxe
It's more the principle than anything. Does the government- US or the UK- have a right to tell people not to do something on what are private premises? As I said I'll benefit personally- I can't stand the bloody habit and I wish it didn't exist- but it does and I don't think the government has a right to dictate things affecting our personal health, I never liked smoking but hell there's lots of things I don't like but I don't promote banning them. Logically the next step would be to ban beer as well as it's also bad for your health- ban beer?- couldn't happen!!!!!!

Show me a study that says beer (wine or alcohol) in moderation is bad for your health....or the health of someone sitting next to you.

My company is self insured (health insurance) and if you smoke, you pay a surcharge of $8 per week for coverage. They also refuse to pay for medical care if you are not wearing a seatbelt and are involved in a car accident.

Point is, unless you are a hermit, people have rules and laws to deal with. Don't like it? Protest for change. But for every person that tells me "Don't like smoke? Stay home", I can just as easily and rightfully say in response now "Don't like having to step outside to smoke? Stay home."

Cheers!

MikShau
02-19-2006, 02:39 PM
You can't even smoke in a BAR in Florida, unless less than 10% of their revenue is from food.

As for the government, the law is a result of a referendom put on the ballot that passed with 76% of the vote. Either there aren't enough smokers or they don't vote.

Funny though, a similar yes vote for high speed rail was stalled until the pols put it up again worded in such a way that a yes vote meant to kill the original bill. ( I guess this one didn't help the right contributors, all the high speed rail builders are from Europe).

fretlessman71
02-19-2006, 02:44 PM
There's a bill going through CO right now that would ban smoking in public places - bars and restaurants - with the following exceptions: casinos, the DIA smoking lounge, cigar bars (meaning where they actually sell the cigars there - not sure of the particulars of their definition) and smoke shops (so you can try tobacco you wish to buy - why would a nonsmoker go in there?). Looks like it's going to pass.

I, too, have a bit of a problem with the gov't telling a private business owner what they can and can't do with their business - but they already do to an extent, don't they? If I wanted to open a bar - let's call it "The Reactor" - and say have a big pile of radioactive waste in the middle of the floor as a curiosity, I don't think the gov't would permit it. It's a matter of where the line should be drawn - and I think that smoking falls on the side of the line with the radioactive waste, and alcohol does not. Smoking is the only social habit that affects everyone within wafting distance, and never in a positive way.

It'll be very nice to not have to carry a bottle of Febreze around in the car with me should this pass - as it is, I spray everything down outside the car before it goes in when I play a smoky club. The bottle has been frozen of late - highly annoying...

DecoJuicer
02-20-2006, 08:19 AM
I mostly quit smoking almost 18 months ago, but I still cheat occasionally...maybe once a month. I do have a problem with the government passing laws that tell business owners what they can do on their premises.

However, I have read in that in New York and California where they have passed similar laws, business has actually INCREASED in bars and restraunts. They are bringing in new clients that avoided bars and pubs in the past because of all the smoke.

corkybstewart
02-20-2006, 10:06 AM
Carlsbad passed a no smoking law a few years ago, but it doesn't include bars. The only real problem we've had is deciding what is a bar that sells food, and a restaurant that sells booze. Restaurant owners "knew" it would kill their business, but business actually improved. Eating out is like going to church-nobody complains about not being able to smoke in church, and that usually lasts longer than a restaurant meal. And smoking sections are about as effective as a peeing section in a pool.

newportstorm
02-20-2006, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by DecoJuicer
I do have a problem with the government passing laws that tell business owners what they can do on their premises.


I hear this argument a lot and it doesn't hold water. Business owners are subject to many laws - just a few of which govern occupancy maximums, "one-day sales", happy hours, hours of operation, etc. People can't just toss up a sign, open a business and make their own rules in today's world. Hell, "pub crawls" are officially banned in Newport, RI! That irritates me more than any smoking restriction.

Cheers!

DecoJuicer
02-20-2006, 11:07 AM
Free market economy should dictate this type of issue, not government regulations. If I want to open up a pub that caters to smokers, then non-smokers should feel free to go to another pub. And the same works in reverse. We aren't talking about discrimination issues here, and if you are going into a bar to consume alcoholic beverages and eat greasy bar food, then odds are good that you aren't a health nut to begin with. Most of the brewpubs around me are non-smoking, and to be honest I like them better than the dive bars that I used to hang out in.

If a smoker wants to go to a bar that is non-smoking that is fine. However, they need to know that they are going to have to brave the elements if they want a square.

And as far as Fret's analogy goes(the bar with the radioactive waste on the floor), as long as the bar posted it on the front door, then anybody who goes in there has had fair warning.

Legislators and judges(many of whom believe that they are legislators also) have been going crazy lately passing laws to protect us from ourselves. Today it is smoking, tomorrow it could be beer. It's a slippery slope from, "for the common good", to "because I don't like it."

Now putting my soapbox away.

HarkJohnny
02-20-2006, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by corkybstewart
And smoking sections are about as effective as a peeing section in a pool.

that's the truth!

My opinion: I choose not to smoke and I don't want to smell/smell like yours. Especially when i'm out to dinner. I don't have the luxury to go out to dinner often, probably not even once a month. I want to enjoy th chance when I get to. And I don't get the cig in one hand fork in the other routine. Don't you want to taste your food when you eat? Or your delicious beer when you drink it? (and what the hell is with some of these indoor beer fest that allow smoking??! that's just against the whole purpose of the event... BEER TASTING!)

I will vote for a smoking ban the second it shows up on my ballot. I've even signed one of the online deals that sends a letter to my congresspeople encouraging them to support the smoking ban.

and to further support corky's "church" statement:
you can't smoke in a movie theater or on a bus or airplane either. If you can't stop smoking for more than a couple hours that's pretty sad. I have to stop drinking to go to work, why can't you stop smoking?

speaking of smoking while working...that P's me off too... smoke breaks. So therefore I have no qualms about screwing around on "teh intarnet" for 10 mins every hour of my day. It's my healthy smoke break.

and don't get me started on the large percentage of A-holes among the smokers who soooo nonchalantly LITTER cig butts whether it's along the sidewalk, while driving or otherwise. MAN THAT EATS MY A$$!!! GRRRRRRRRRRRR ARRRGGGG!!!! :mad:

corkybstewart
02-20-2006, 11:57 AM
Give 'em hell Hark. I caught hell here in my small town for my letters to the local newspaper supporting the smoking ban. I asked for the non-smoking section in a fairly expensive eatery here and we got placed beteween 2 tables of smokers. We walked out and have never been back. Smoke is a big reason I still won't go to bars here. When my wife was a bartender she would undress in the kitchen because her clothes smelled so bad I wouldn't let her wear them into the house. I'm an ex smoker, gave it up about 7 years ago, but even then I hated restaurant smoke. It took away from the taste of the food. And I also hate the crowd around the door. When my wife worked at the hospital I took her dinner one night. There wereabout 15 staff members at the emergency room door. I asked what was going on, big bus wreck or something. It was the staff going outside for their hourly "breathing treatments".

Chris St Mary
02-20-2006, 12:06 PM
You DON'T want to get me started on this one!
I smoked for 18 years and I quit cold turkey 14 years ago, when I met my wife. With all the things out there to help you quit, there's no reason you can't.
As far as the Nanny-state that gov'ts have become, I agree that the choice should be with the owner or management of the establishment but Fret made some good points on being regulated, as did alot of other postings.
On a personal note: one of the beer bars in the area with the best selection was designated a cigar bar so smoking is allowed.
I rarely go there because of it. You end up smelling like an old ashtray.

Chris St Mary
02-20-2006, 12:11 PM
If people want to damage their health, they will find a way. just don't charge me for the funeral or supporting the survivors.
I heard someplace in my travels through this country of ours that the local lawmakers were working on a law to prevent smokers from congregating near the doors. They will have to be a certain distance from the doors if they want to smoke. The current Leper's Colony of our society.

Sladek
02-20-2006, 12:12 PM
I think it's a public health issue. Sure, I can "choose" not to go to a place, but in reality, if I don't want to be exposed to high levels of passive smoking, I have NO choice. I can't go. In fact, my choices are severely limited. In the end, passive smoking effects everybody negatively, so it's more than just personal choice, akin to air/water pollution. I don't mind banning of something that is probably one of the most harmful habits (to the smoker and the people around him/her) a human can do.

Bloodaxe
02-20-2006, 12:25 PM
One thing I must remind you here- I DON'T SMOKE!( Sorry for shouting!). The UK Government is already making disapproving noises about what it calls "Binge Drinking" which is 5 pints of beer or more at a sitting. Now I don't know the USA well enough, despite having travelled around quite a bit there, but here in the UK we tend to go for a night out particularly at weekends and in my case consume about 6-7 pints an evening. The rest of the week I rarely have a beer unless I nip in for a couple. Now as I'm usually meeting mates who in some cases live 10-12 miles away I use public transport which say gets me there in 1/2 to 3/4 of an hour, so thats at least an hour to an hour and a half just getting there and back. The government however would presumably be happy if I had their suggested 2-3 pints and then buggered off home after an hour or so.
To be honest I think I'm just sick of the nanny state mentality that abounds these days, I personally think governments should confine themself to rnning the bloody country and leave the social engineering to the people to work it out for themselves.

Bloodaxe
02-20-2006, 12:29 PM
PS. Fret, what's a DIA smoking lounge?

DecoJuicer
02-20-2006, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by Sladek
In the end, passive smoking effects everybody negatively, so it's more than just personal choice, akin to air/water pollution. I don't mind banning of something that is probably one of the most harmful habits (to the smoker and the people around him/her) a human can do.

Pulling my soapbox back out.

I take it you are also in favor of banning cars then, right? Automobile accidents, the pollution they cause, and the pollution and industrial accidents involved in making them kill FAR more people every year than cigarettes. Even people who don't own cars are affected. And you can't use the arguement that vehicles have a purpose that cigarettes don't, because they do. They have the same purpose as alcohol, they relax the person smoking one. And while we are on the subject of alcohol. I can tell you from personal experience working for a police department that alcohol is responsible for about all sorts of crime...family trouble, car accidents, fights, thefts. If you want to ban the use of cigarettes in public, then why not ban the use of alcohol in public places(bar and restaurants) too.

Let me state again, I don't smoke, but I do support personal freedoms. If a bar or restaurant owner says that he or she does not want smoking in their bar or on their property, I am just fine with that. If they say that you have to walk out to the sidewalk that is next to the road because they don't want smokers congregating in front of the door, I am completely ok with that. It's their business and their property. In Michigan, you can not smoke on any school property. I am ok with that too because that building is owned by the government and like I said, if you own it, you get to make the rules. Most hospitals around here have put in smoking sections that are in heated, or at least sheltered, locations, and that is the ONLY place on the property where employees and customers are permitted to smoke.

But if a business owner says come on in and light up, and you are sitting at a table next to the guy who lights up. Then you have every right to pay your bill, get up, walk out the door, and tell all of your friends about how terrible you thought the place was, and never go back there again. But I can bet when you walked in, the person seating you asked if you wanted smoking or non-smoking, so you knew that they allowed smoking.

Since I quit, I have tried to avoid places that allow smoking. I generally don't go to restaurants that have a smoking section, and the pubs that I like to go to now don't allow smoking. And yes, I do think that it is a disgusting habit, that's why I quit. But I also think that chewing tobacco and spitting into a bottle is disgusting, but I still see a lot more people doing that in bars now.

My point is this, don't be so quick to try to take something away from somebody else just because YOU don't like it. Because it might be your turn next, and you won't have any right to bitch about it.

I'll put my soapbox away, but I'm leaving it where I can get to it. You've been warned! ;)

wortchillergoal
02-20-2006, 02:34 PM
NJ is/was trying to pass a law that prohibit yoy from smoking in your car. What is next, no smoking in your bedroom after sex?There goes the birth rate.

newportstorm
02-20-2006, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by DecoJuicer
Pulling my soapbox back out.

I take it you are also in favor of banning cars then, right? Automobile accidents, the pollution they cause, and the pollution and industrial accidents involved in making them kill FAR more people every year than cigarettes. Even people who don't own cars are affected.

Poor analogy. No one said ban cigarettes altogether. They're simply restricted to where you can smoke them. Same with cars. There are laws that govern where and how you should operate them.

Use your soapbox for something more useful...like storing beer. There really is no winning the argument on either side. Every point will be countered by the other side. Don't like it? Protest it.

Cheers!

wortchillergoal
02-20-2006, 03:28 PM
I have to go along with the gist of DeoJuicer's post. Once a law is made banning a personal choice subject, the next law comes easier. I mean making it against the law to smoke in you own car, even if you explain it tome I won't understand the logic. What is next, illegal to Bar-B-Que in your own backyard cause the smoke may make the cat next door sick?

hops99
02-20-2006, 03:40 PM
and don't get me started on the large percentage of A-holes among the smokers who soooo nonchalantly LITTER cig butts whether it's along the sidewalk, while driving or otherwise. MAN THAT EATS MY A$$!!! GRRRRRRRRRRRR ARRRGGGG!!!!

I thought I was the only one who hated this. I see a couple dozen cars a DAY flipping cig butts out onto the road, or on someone's lawn as they drive by. How is this not littering? Why does everyone get away with it?

My sister lives in New Mexico, and I was out visiting her a few years ago, right after the rash of forest fires around Los Alamos. So, we're driving out in the area, looking for a spot to have a picnic lunch and go on a small hike (literally a couple of miles from where the fire stopped), and this car in front of us flicks a couple of cigarette butts out the window. WTF????


I could rant all day about smoking/no-smoking, but I'll just say this: No local, state, or federal agency is "banning smoking" here in the U.S. - they're simply regulating, in some instances, WHERE you can or can't smoke. Sure, you can't smoke anymore inside the pub? Walk 20 feet out the door to have a quick smoke. Big frickin' deal. I can't stand the government scare-mongers who try getting people to believe that some small regulation of tobacco is the first step to communism. I've also always been fascinated by the complete lack of consideration by most smokers - they KNOW that 2nd hand smoke is harmful to others, but light up next to you on the park bench anyway.

I'm a liquor permit owner in Ohio, and I can tell you the regulations on tobacco are 1/100th what they are on alcohol. As someone said earlier, you'd be shocked what else the federal and state governments regulate relative to private business owners. Pay rates, health insurance, sales tax, permit fees, workers compensation, hours of operation, fire suppression, fire escape, outdoor signage, sidewalk maintenance, number of parking spaces per business, and dozens and dozens more.
I haven't even mentioned the 100 or so regulations that are mandatory for retail food business compliance with the health department.

All this, but people are only worried about the rights of a private business owner when the government steps in to impose minor regulation on tobacco usage? Puh-lease....

DecoJuicer
02-20-2006, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by hops99
All this, but people are only worried about the rights of a private business owner when the government steps in to impose minor regulation on tobacco usage? Puh-lease....

For years I have been saying that the regulations on all businesses, not just small business, is way to restrictive. It goes back to a free market economy. If I am an employer, and some guy down the street provides a better work environment or better services, then I will be forced to either alter my business or close my doors.

And I didn't like people who flicked smokes on the ground either. When I was smoking, I would always field strip the butt and pocket it, or throw the butt in my ashtray.

And as far as regulations go for driving vehicles, do exhaust fumes stay on the roadways? Hell, most people can't even keep their cars on the roadway. How about the industrial accidents that occur when people are making the vehicle, or the pollution that the plant produces?

Sladek
02-20-2006, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by DecoJuicer
And as far as regulations go for driving vehicles, do exhaust fumes stay on the roadways? Hell, most people can't even keep their cars on the roadway. How about the industrial accidents that occur when people are making the vehicle, or the pollution that the plant produces?
All things that are regulated.

chazwicke
02-20-2006, 05:42 PM
I'll third the complaint about filthy smokers trowing their butts out. Check out the median next time you're stopped at a light. Usually there are thousands of butts. Smoking is a FILTHY habit.

And I agree that when tactics are successful in getting one thing banned, you can be certain that other groups will be waiting in the wings to co-opt them for their own causes.

fretlessman71
02-21-2006, 12:07 AM
Originally posted by hops99
I thought I was the only one who hated this. I see a couple dozen cars a DAY flipping cig butts out onto the road, or on someone's lawn as they drive by. How is this not littering? Why does everyone get away with it?

My sister lives in New Mexico, and I was out visiting her a few years ago, right after the rash of forest fires around Los Alamos. So, we're driving out in the area, looking for a spot to have a picnic lunch and go on a small hike (literally a couple of miles from where the fire stopped), and this car in front of us flicks a couple of cigarette butts out the window. WTF????


I could rant all day about smoking/no-smoking, but I'll just say this: No local, state, or federal agency is "banning smoking" here in the U.S. - they're simply regulating, in some instances, WHERE you can or can't smoke. Sure, you can't smoke anymore inside the pub? Walk 20 feet out the door to have a quick smoke. Big frickin' deal. I can't stand the government scare-mongers who try getting people to believe that some small regulation of tobacco is the first step to communism. I've also always been fascinated by the complete lack of consideration by most smokers - they KNOW that 2nd hand smoke is harmful to others, but light up next to you on the park bench anyway.

I'm a liquor permit owner in Ohio, and I can tell you the regulations on tobacco are 1/100th what they are on alcohol. As someone said earlier, you'd be shocked what else the federal and state governments regulate relative to private business owners. Pay rates, health insurance, sales tax, permit fees, workers compensation, hours of operation, fire suppression, fire escape, outdoor signage, sidewalk maintenance, number of parking spaces per business, and dozens and dozens more.
I haven't even mentioned the 100 or so regulations that are mandatory for retail food business compliance with the health department.

All this, but people are only worried about the rights of a private business owner when the government steps in to impose minor regulation on tobacco usage? Puh-lease.... See? Every once in a while, we see eye to eye... ;)

CO drivers are actually encouraged to call in from the highway on their cell phone to the State Patrol when they see a driver toss a cig butt out the window - you get to tell them license, make/model, where you are, etc. Stuff like that caused WAAAAAAAAY too many road fires a few years back.

Richard English
02-21-2006, 05:20 AM
Much as we might dislike it, it is part of the job of Government to introduce Laws which might, in the greater good, infringe on personal liberties. We do not allow many things nowadays that were once common - bear-baiting; opium-smoking; public hanging - and smoking in public buildings is just the latest practice that the majority have agreed should be outlawed.

The outcry from the minority (which is just the same as the outcry that happened when smoking was banned on public transport) will soon die down and the pubs will be busier than ever, now that ashmatics, those with sensitive eyes and those who simply dislike smelling of smoke, can now pop in for a pint without the ill effects of smoke pollution.

HarkJohnny
02-21-2006, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by fretlessman71
See? Every once in a while, we see eye to eye... ;)

CO drivers are actually encouraged to call in from the highway on their cell phone to the State Patrol when they see a driver toss a cig butt out the window - you get to tell them license, make/model, where you are, etc. Stuff like that caused WAAAAAAAAY too many road fires a few years back.

that's AWESOME fret... i can see how out west that's akin to drunken driving. and they have a hotline for that too: 1-800-GRAB-DUI

corkybstewart
02-21-2006, 11:43 AM
2 months ago some yahoo threw a cigarette butt out the window. The fire burned 40 miles and made it to the outskirts of Hobbs NM where it managed to burn several houses and barns. The desert southwest is in a drought crisis after 2 years of good rain. It doesn't take much to start a fire and with winds averaging 25-50 mph almost every day lately, little fires get big and move fast. In the national forests around here there are strict no smoking rules in place, but there will always be smoker the rules don't apply to.